This is an elaboration of the prior post.
Avraham Avinu became Moshiach ben Yosef from the time of Brit Bein HaBetarim. According to the Seder Olam, this was in 2018, when Avraham was 70 years old. According to the GR"A, it was in the year 2023, when he was 75 years old.
Yitzchak Avinu became Moshiach ben Yosef from the time of the Akeidah. This was in 2085, when he was 37 years old.
Yaakov Avinu became Moshiach ben Yosef from the time he fought with Esav's Angel at Peniel. This was the year 2205, Yaakov was 97 years old.
Yehudah became Moshiach ben Yosef from the day he saved Yosef. According to the Seder Olam, he was born in 2195. That is 4 years older than Yosef, therefore this was when he was 21 years old.
Yosef became Moshiach ben Yosef from the time of his first dream, at age 17, the year 2216.
Moshe Rabbeinu became Moshiach ben Yosef from the time he took Yosef's bones with him in the year 2448, at the age of 80.
Yehoshua Bin Nun fought against Amalek in the year 2448, at the age 42 (Yehoshua was born in 2406).
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ReplyDeleteI would say the substance of these men is not that they became Moshiach ben Yosef, but that they had something in common with him; that was that they had complete faith in Hashem.
Also, you could say that Moshiach ben Yosef was present in the seed of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, according to the progressive promise that followed in Avraham Avinu's line...
Shavua Tov
Baruch Yaakov, Shavua Tov.
ReplyDeleteEach one has its Moshiach ben Yosef point.
Avraham because he ensured our place in Eretz Yisrael.
Yitzchak because of his self-sacrifice for the will of Hashem
Yaakov for fighting the wars with Israel's enemies, as well as Yehoshua.
The kesher with Moshe Rabbeinu is more with Yosef himself, he recognized Yosef, which is a major thing in our day.
Yehuda because he saved another Jew's life.
Yosef because he saved Am Yisrael during the famine because of how he fulfilled the dreams.
Yes, you are right in all those examples. But are not those "points" really actions of faith?
ReplyDeleteFor instance, even before Avram became Avraham, he simply believed Hashem's promise to him and, as it says, "Avram believed Hashem, and he (meaning Hashem) credited to him (Avram) as righteousness."
His belief, his faith, made him tzadik...not from man's testimony, or from man's merit, but from Hashem's testimony. And thus he was called G-d's friend.
Only Hashem can make one, can declare one, righteous...
While this is not the classical view, regarding the age of Moshe, the pshat seems that he was 80 when he first spoke to Pharaoh (Shemot 7:7), in which case he would have been 81 when he took the bones of Yosef. Deuteronomy 1:3 counts 40 years but it does not really say from when.
ReplyDeleteBaruch:
ReplyDeleteThe trait of Moshiach ben Yosef is action. He does and he succeeds. Simple or even not so simple faith is not enough. It is not enough to do the mitzvot alone either, but one must constantly strive to figure out what Hashem wants from us and put it in to action. That is what these giants did.
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteYou are most certainly right, he was 81 and another 6 or so weeks by Yetziat Mitzraim. I should have seen that as it is fairly obvious from the pshat of the text and the masorah that his birthday is the 7th of Adar. The question lies with the other events, when they took place along with actual birth dates. I'll update later to reflect what I find. Not feeling so well now unfortunately. Should pass within another few hours.
Refuah Shlemah.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous:
ReplyDeleteYou know I like to be consistent on matters.
Either we are counting the years according to what year they are in (Where 5708 is 1), or how many years completed (5708 is 0).
If we count the years completed, we can have a combined list starting from 5708.5 to 5794.5, or a separate list from Avraham in 5708.5-5709.5 to 5793.5-5794.5 and Yitzchak in 5709.5-5710.5 - 5783.5-5784.5.
Either way, I am having trouble being consistent and overlaying the Moshiach ben Yosef years from the Torah. Your help would be appreciated.
I think it is that simple. Faith is simple, and not complex. And it begins in one's heart. Mitzvot without faith is death, and unpleasing to Hashem. No matter how many you do, without faith they are worthless. This is what the rebels of the past and the present are and were guilty of, and punished for. They performed outwardly, but inside they were dark.
ReplyDeleteBut if the inside is illuminated by true faith, and that faith being in Hashem and His promises and what He has done and layed out clearly before us, and not faith in any certain mitzvot, then the mitzvot is empowered by that same faith, meaning true faith gives birth to true mitzvot.
True, one must figure out what Hashem desires of us. But that is being overlooked I'm afraid...for the kingdom of shamayim is within us, the reigning of Moshiach begins in the heart.
The ohr of Moshiach enlightens all men who come into the world. The ohr of Moshiach is faith.
I think there is not choice. If the approach has truth, and it surely looks like it, all starts at the Omer of 5748 (on the 7th day it appears). Almost all fits, 86, 75, 81, 42. Only 60 not. This you cannot fix by shifting things wholesale. There were 15 years of fighting over the Bechora, plus a few months of pregnancy. And not 14 years. Apparently, the Esav from withing will loose power after a year, whereas the Esav from without will fall after 15 years.
ReplyDeleteSorry 5708, not 5748
ReplyDeleteThanks for your response.
ReplyDeleteWhy 7th of the Omer? Which year are you referring to?
Starting at 7th of Omer 5708 (and year 1 = 5708) leads to:
60 = Omer 5767 - Pesach 5768
70 = Omer 5777 - Pesach 5778
75 = Omer 5782 - Pesach 5783
81 = Omer 5788 - Pesach 5789
86 = Omer 5793 - Pesach 5794
Baruch Yaakov,
ReplyDeleteWhen I write "simple" faith, I was referring to the Chassidic or Breslov concept of having faith and not spending too much time investigating things. I do not want to get in to an argument about the different approaches to emunah temimah, but that is what I meant.
I believe that the message of Yosef is the easiest to define as Moshiach ben Yosef. The GR"A sums it up in a beautiful phrase:
"He (Yosef) did not want to contradict the Upper Will, and this is an important general rule of Torah" (Aderet Eliyahu on Parshat Miketz on the words "And Yosef remembered his dreams"
That is the main spark. For all the concepts of Moshiach ben Yosef in Kol HaTor, where can you find them in Sefer HaMitzvot of the Rambam? You can't. But, if you read through the Tanach in its entirety, you will see that this is in the spirit of the very Sifrei Kodesh we hold so dearly.
The *doing* is the key. This is where it gets uncomfortable for Jews in Galus, and I say it out of love. Kol HaTor is a Shulchan Aruch of our days for what Hashem desires, actions beyond the Shulchan Aruch. Sure there is great value to support from abroad, both financially and in other ways, however it pales in comparison with making yourself a part of that Great Spark.
On the 7th day of the Omer mitgaleh oro shel Moshiach...
ReplyDeleteI would make 5708 into year 0.
That's my problem. If you are saying 5708 is year 0, then you are counting the completed years, so Moshe is 80. If 5708 is year 1, that moves it to 5793 and 5782, Moshiach fights.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the cutoff date, Targum Yonatan says on וימלאו ימיה ללדת that it was 270 days. 7th of the Omer makes 280.
Do we disagree? 7th day of the Omer 5708 is the 0th birthday, so 7th day of the Omer 5789 would be his 81th birthday, 7th day of the Omer 5794 his 86th etc.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the 280, I understand what you are saying. I'll think about it.
Well, you have shown (Shemot 7:7) that the Chumash is counting the years, not the anniversaries reached, where 5708 would be 1. If Moshe is 80 years old by the Makkot, then that means that the definition of 80 years old is correct for Tishrei 2448, and he is 81 by Yetziat Mitzraim. This only works if Adar 2368 to 2369 is year 1, not year 0.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, 5708 should be year 1, the inyan with 80 should be dropped, and there needs to be yishuv on 60, perhaps making the cutoff year the 20th of the Omer.
I partially retract what I have said on the last one.
ReplyDelete5708 is year 0, like the way people call these things in the world today.
60 is the birth, 75 is when things are complete on the left, 86 is when they are complete on the right.
I am getting used to retracting things here.
ReplyDeleteI think I agree with you regarding Moshe.
Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov are all calculated according to birthdays passed (make a spreadsheet in Excel and you'll see that's the only way to get the years to work), therefore it is proper to extrapolate to Moshe.
I'm almost done drafting this.
"so 7th day of the Omer 5789 would be his 81th birthday,"
ReplyDeleteWhose birthday?
Simcha - I hope to have something comprehensive to post fairly shortly.
ReplyDeleteRegarding 280, at the completed term these are the days from the last menstruation. Gestation would have started around the 20th day of the Omer. Perhaps one can say that the 270 of the Targum indicates a completed term from the start of gestation rather than an exact number.
ReplyDeleteYou are right. Faith without correct knowledge is folly. Simple faith, which I mean, is the faith that a child has. Their's is shamayim.
ReplyDeleteSearching Tanach is the answer. HaRuach HaKodesh can teach those whose hearts are open, I believe this with all my heart. I guess I am more along the lines of a Karaite at times, but only Hashem knows what I really am, and within the right time He reveals.
Moshiach is written upon all the pages of Tanach...Moshiach is the final revelation of Hashem...
Shalom, friend.
Despite the above, the inyan of the 7th day of Omer has a different background, which is assur to write about. Also, Ya'akov is said to have been born in the same month as Avraham. Yet, there is a gestation period here. Tsarich Iyun.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - I've sent you the draft. Thanks for preventing me from asking about the 7th of the Omer :)
ReplyDeleteThis chiddush as far as I can tell, has no claims of precision on the level that is available elsewhere.
Breishit 33:18
ויבא יעקב שלם עיר שכם.
He was Shalem at 97 or 98 years of age. I think it is 98 from what I see in Seder Olam. He had run away at age 63.
Perhaps we should examine Yaakov as well.
15 - Bechorah
63 - Brachot, fleeing Esav
77 Arrival at Charan (undoing Avraham leaving Charan?)
84 Married Rachel and Leah
91 Yosef born
97 Fled Lavan, stayed in Sukkot
99 Got to Kiryat Arba
Baruch,
ReplyDeletePlease beware of attaching yourself to the Karaites. We are to strive for truth. While it seems that this is what they are doing, it ignores the mitzvah of the Sanhedrin. The Jewish Masorah which they despise contains the rulings of the Sanhedrin which are binding on all of Am Yisrael.
We must keep all of the Mitzvot and constantly search for clues as to what Hashem wants of us. May it be His will to enlighten us always.
Be well
Baruch is a Yeshu believer. By Karaite, he means, like them he doesn't accept the Oral law. Only what is "written." They equate Torah sh'b'al pei with the "traditions of men" that Yashke warned them about. Better for us, I say! They are insidious---work their way into everything with their half-truths and innuendos. I hate them.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your clarifications Gilui. I've read from the beginning, but I will begin again so I can understand better where you are coming from and where this is going.
Simcha, Baruch Hashem, I have been removed from Galus long enough that I have overlooked what you have seen so clearly. There is a definite hint in his comments here to faith in yeshu. Back in Galus, I was keenly aware of these things as I dealt with them regularly. Nonetheless I do not want to label without further information.
ReplyDeleteBaruch Yaakov, would you mind clarifying your point of view?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete>Perhaps we should examine Yaakov as well.
ReplyDelete> 15 - Bechorah
> 63 - Brachot, fleeing Esav
The first part of the life of Yaakov is in our "window" as the son of Yitzchak. So the selling Bechora is already accounted for. But the 63 should be taken serious. The exile will be terminated. It will become dangerous to stay in the Galut of Edom.
Anonymous: not sure I understand what you mean by the window with the 15.
ReplyDeleteI sent you a new modified draft including the 63 and more, though I think perhaps just the 63 belongs.
Baruch Yaakov,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your honesty. Such theology and its accompanying views are not welcome here. G-d willing I will post the Jewish interpretation of those verses in Daniel in the very near future, it is a bit late for me to start now.
As such I am deleting your last comment.
G-
ReplyDeleteThank you for your sensibility and honesty too. It is a loss that these things cannot be discussed, and that such strictness is required when they are brought up.
May Hashem bless you for at least letting me be clear and give my testimony. I will continue on in my pilgrimage to Tziyon, following Moshiach.
Shalom
Shalom
ReplyDelete>Please beware of attaching yourself to the Karaites. We are to strive for truth. While it seems that this is what they are doing, it ignores the mitzvah of the Sanhedrin.
The Torah cotains no such miswa. if you mean Devarim 17:8-13, this is a passage commanding us to take local disputes that couldn't be resolved in local legal instances to a supreme tribunal situated on the Temple Mount and comprised of priests + 1 non-priestly judge. Its rulings and verdicts were binding only for the specific litigants in each case respectively and were not intended to serve as Halakha for Klal Yisra'el, let alone for perpetuity. At most, they served as legal precedents that could be used as benchmarks and legal solutions to fully or partly apply in the resolution of future disputes of similar nature.
The Pharisaic Sanhedrin and its Rabbinic successor wasn't set up according to this Torah passage. In any rate, the Sanhedrin was no longer situated on the TM after 70 AD. Hence most of the Mishna and following Rabbinic compendiums of Halakha shouldn't carry any authoritative weight for Jews who refuse to submit themselves to Rabbinic authority.
Hence the claim "the Jewish Masorah which they [the Qaraite Jews] despise contains the rulings of the Sanhedrin which are binding on all of Am Yisrael" is nullified and void.
>Baruch is a Yeshu believer. By Karaite, he means, like them he doesn't accept the Oral law. Only what is "written." They equate Torah sh'b'al pe with the "traditions of men" that Yashke warned them about. Better for us, I say! They are insidious---work their way into everything with their half-truths and innuendos. I hate them.
I agree the Messyantics are insidious. They've got no business posing as Qaraite Jews. I've even raked one such person over the coals.